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What is an expected motor temperature and too hot temperature?

ryan_m

100cc
Quick question... What temps should I expect to be seeing on a properly running/properly cooled gas motor. Specifically this is an EME 70 twin cylinder motor. I have it mounted up to a 3dhs 91" Yak 55. On the fifth flight the motor quit on me, and I suspect it was due to overheating. It's winter, and I was in a hurry to fly the plane and didn't baffle the cowl at all. Now I have baffled it, and installed a telemetry temperature sensor. The sensor is mounted to a fin on the back top of one of the cylinders. At half throttle I see temps in the 250-260 range. At 3/4 throttle they are up to 290, and at full throttle will easily climb to 310. This seems to hot to me, though the motor seems to run just fine like this. The day it quit on me the motor was getting very sluggish and wouldn't go above half throttle right before it quit. I didn't have telemetry or a temp gun then, but the cowl felt very very warm when I carried it back. Warmer than it was today.

So - what are normal/expected temps? And how high is too high?
 
Ideally you would like to see under 300F but under a heavy load you may see just over 300F. I expect to see my normal temps between 250F-300F. My DA170 had reached 350F a few times while I was testing new baffling. I disassembled the jugs for inspection and found no over heat issues at all. But one thing to think about is using a good air cooled oil that is designed to operate under these temps. I use Stihl HP ultra because it is designed to be used with high heat, high load, higher RPM chain saws and gas engines. Redline is also a great oil but I have no experience in that oil.
 

ryan_m

100cc
Great! I won't worry too much more on it then. Using redline now at 35:1, used to run stihl, but redline seems to be the hot ticket these days.
 

49dimes

Damn I'm hungry
The temp range as stated by others are a good measuring stick. You said it is winter so I assume ambient conditions are below 60 degrees?? it is actually 65 as I type this where I am and my engines run 260 -280 (EME 60) 240- 260 (DA120). These temps are different because the difference in baffling and air extraction. Now in a hover even on a cold day, say 45 degrees, the EME 60 heats up more rapidly because air flow is just about static (not moving) and can get to well over 300 degrees in a hurry. The elaborate system I did on my DA 120 allows me to stay in a hover much longer because the air flow never really gets as close to static as the EME does. On hot days say above 85 degrees and high humidity I will see an increase in "normal" temps between 25 and 30 degrees simply due to the higher ambient temp.
 

ryan_m

100cc
Temps today were 45-55 when I was doing my testing. It gets above 100 here in the summertime, so having the telemetry on it now should be very good to keep an eye on things with. I'll modify the alarming I have on the telemetry to not squawk at me unless the temps get up above 325 or so I think. I haven't stuck it in a hover for more than a couple seconds since having the sensor installed. I'll do that maybe tomorrow a bit. Have about 3/4 gallon through the motor now and the eme70 is turnings falcon 24x9 at about 6700 rpm on the ground. Plenty of power on the yak.
 

ryan_m

100cc
Yeah, the EME recommends 35:1, my other motors I was running it at 40:1. Saw a video just the other day from the guys at da who say redline burns so clean that it can be ran anywhere from 30:1 to 40:1 just fine. So I figured I'll run at 35:1 as recommended in the EME manual.
 
hello Ryan, this is one of my favorite subjects, and i have done a significant amount of testing on this subject, using telemetry.
The 1st thing to mention is that, the value you are obtaining is highly dependant on what ever you are using to "measure" the temperature with, and where this temperature is being measured (location).

i would 1st like to say, the use of IR temp guns, in my opinion, is useless. all it tells you is the temp at the front of the cylinder, upon landing and taxing back. it does not tell you anything at all about the temperatures during flight, when the motor is under a load.

also, i have done tests with placement of sensors in different locations.

for example, a sensor in front of cylinder, low down, closer to crankcase vs higher up, closer to the spark plug.
the higher it is, the hotter the temp.

ok, same level, one sensor in front and one in the back of the cylinder (shadow of prop-wash). this will always show that the temp behind the cylinder is much higher (almost 50 to 80 degrees) higher than the temp in the front (due to effect of prop wash on front of cylinder).

interestingly enough, upon engine shut down, the temp in back stays same seconds later, but temp in front quickly rises to temp in the back, 30 seconds later, temp in front is equal to temp in back, then both temps go down together.

If you want a sensor to read the "hottest" area, then you need to place a sensor that either is part of the spark plug, or use a loop on the upper most aspect of cylinder fins, but that is touching the cylinder area. The temp you are getting on the actual "fin' itself, will be an underestimate of the real "True" hotness!!

now that i am seeing people use this sensor, i will do a test, whereby i will compare this temp to a loop with the sensor behind the cylinder.

this will give me an idea of how much is the temp difference.


Ok, here is some crazy data....
this is with a 70 cc twin motor
sensor is in the back of the cylinder, uppermost area (hottest area).

the motor runs well with temps in 300 range. If temps get into 380 range, still runs well, no fading or hiccuping.
once motor gets into 400 range, still seems to run ok, but the moment it gets to 450 F, it will fade, meaning, 1/2 stick, it loses power, if i throttle up, "DEADSTICK!"



ok, some cool info:

temps are constantly fluctuating during flight.
there will be temp peaks and valleys.

if you fly level, temps can be in 250 range, if you do a long upline, temps can rise to 320 F.

any type of hovering, knife edge flight, knife edge spins, flat spins, etc... where the motor is revving up, but there is less air movement, will really heat up the motor.

ok, you are flying, doing sport stuff, the moment you get ready to make approach to land, temps will decrease by 50 degrees or so, when you are locked on to land, and are gliding in, the temp is the lowest, this is when airplane is descending, and has a good speed, and the motor is idling. there is good air movement in the cowl, and the motor is under least amount of load, this is a time the motor really cools down. Upon landing and then taxing back, temps will go up a bit, maybe 20 degrees or so, from what i recall.

anyways, hope this info helps.

i would say, be aware, where your temp sensor is, it is not giving you a pure real world exact reading of how hot it is really getting, so you may have to add some more degrees (which i will investigate to get this number).

best regards!!
 
Sounds like you are a little heat soaked. 310F really isnt bad, it isnt good either. Air exit should be around 3x greater than air inlet size. If you have a can tunnel in the airplane, open it up to allow air to escape.

Doing a plug check will yell you if your H needle is too lean. You say it quit on you, but hopefully, you've not tried to restart since? Of you have, it isnt a huge deal.

Start the engine and get it to operating temps, and on a High speed run up, shut the ignition off. Pull the plugs and check the color. Too light of color, indicates lean, which is what I'm suspecting. But you don't want a dirty, dark chocolate color, almost black in color on your plugs. That indicates a rich condition.

Your baffling can be stellar, and you can have all the latest and greatest fandangled gadgets and gizmos. Over heating an engine even with that stuff going off in your ears, while you are flying, can be very distracting, atleast it would be to me. But engine temp telemetry will not tell you that you have a lean condition causing the overheat. It will drive you up a wall, and you will constantly be modding your baffling and air outlet.

Everyone knows I absolutely cannot stand engine telemetry. If you listen to the engines performance, it will tell you what is going on. I listen to it on long uplines (high needle), mid throttle half rolls (low needle). Throw the tach back in the tool box, dont get it out. I get an engine to run good on the ground, then I spend a few flights tweeking the needles. Once you set them, you shouldn't have to touch them for a long while.

Also, oil is oil. There is no "whats the hot ticket" oil or "best oil". Sthil Ultra HP is awesome. I haven't used Red Line. But I do understand that it is good too. Pick an oil and stick with it. Dont change unless you cannot get your favorite oil before you go flying. My engines have a light bit of carbon in them. I dont go for the cleanest combustion chambers. I want my engines to last me a long time.
 
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