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The EXTRA 300 EXT Build Thread

gyro

GSN Contributor
This electric thing is a huge balancing act. First off lets establish that as voltage decreases, apmerage increases (it's how all electrical systems work). Also the higher the current draw, the more heat. Heat is energy, energy that's wasted in the form of radiation and not thrust, thus an efficienty loss. Also battery's have two voltages we are concerned with, an at rest voltage, and an under load voltage. The slower we drain the batteries the more time we can fly. Also the longer we can maintain higher under load voltages means longer periods of burst power.

The idea behind the 12 cell set up is to increase voltage which in return lowers amperage (current). Current is what provides us the raw power we are looking for( the more current the more power). The question is how much raw power, and better yet, how long is that raw power available to us.

To make it simple, view your battery as a pinched garden hose with the water turned all the way on, yet the water supply is being pumped from a five gallon bucket(mah). With a low voltage setup (6S) you have to open the pintched hose 1/2 way to get the same same water pressure (current) as a high voltage (12s) that's opened only 1/4 of the way. As you can see, the five gallon bucket will run out much quicker with the low voltage setup than the high volage one.

Put another way, on a 6s setup, your battery's are working much harder to supply current as compared to a 12S setup. Lower current draw that yeilds the same power (thrust) makes for a more efficent system. Remember this is all a blacning act, right. With a higher cell count pack (12s) used on the same motor as the 6s setup, the rpm's of the motor would double and send the current draws (amperage) throughout the roof. To maintain balance, the winding is changed in the motor to a lower KV, thus maintaining the same rpm's as the 6s setup. In the end you have the same power, (maybe a little more depending on the actual motor wind) but you gain efficienty which equates to longer flight times, longer burst power, and less wear on your battery packs. But there is more, battery packs and weight.

In order to maintain a proper flying weight, you might have to buy different packs. Example, I already have like 10 5000mah 6s packs. I use them in several of my planes and multirotors. I plan to test 2 of the 5000mah packs as 12s setup in my plane, but if the weight is too much I will be forced to buy a bunch of smaller (3700mah) 6s packs. I made this decision going into the build and before I ever bought the motor. It took me a whole to wrap my head around the implications of a 12s system, but I the end I felt the reward was worth having to buy different packs. I have even thought of buying a bunch of 3s and making custom packs.

Lastly I just want to say I am no expert. I am just an old ham radio guy thats been playing with electritiy sice i was a kid. What I wrote above is my understanding of things, if I provided wrong or inaccurate information I hope someone will step in and set me straight. So there you have it, a long winded answer for what in my case could of simply been said, "because it's just better" :)

Nominated for best post of the day....

Seconded.

Decreed: best post of the day ☺️
 

3dmike

640cc Uber Pimp
Nicely done! I like the custom landing gear as well. If it does disrupt the airflow to where it is noticeable just get some CF Sticker material and apply. No one will ever know! LOL Although come to thing about the CF Stickers may cost the same as a set of CF gear. LOL
 

Dr. Gonzo

70cc twin V2
Nice post. I understand tbe advantages of higher voltage and its effects. I ha e read on the subject az well. I just though a 6s 5000 setup is proven and works very well and you have packs. Even higher voltage would be better. You have to draw the line somewhere. Also my thought was a budget focused build? The money spent on packs would pay for a top notch airframe to go with the top notch motor. 6 s seems to be the norm in this size for a reason. Not meaning to sound negative. Just showing the intent of my question. While I love the spirit of experimention a budget build does not seem to be the place?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

3dNater

3DRCF Regional Ambassador
Nice post. I understand tbe advantages of higher voltage and its effects. I ha e read on the subject az well. I just though a 6s 5000 setup is proven and works very well and you have packs. Even higher voltage would be better. You have to draw the line somewhere. Also my thought was a budget focused build? The money spent on packs would pay for a top notch airframe to go with the top notch motor. 6 s seems to be the norm in this size for a reason. Not meaning to sound negative. Just showing the intent of my question. While I love the spirit of experimention a budget build does not seem to be the place?

At the end of the day it is his money and how he decides to spend it is up to him and the "right" way to do it is the way he enjoys doing it. I am just going to offer a little rebuttal as far as my opinion on the subject goes in response to your assertions. I don't want any heated conflict or anything, I just want to offer some contrary points of view.

There is a limit for each motor and ESC as to how high of voltage you can go. 12s is a good jump because it is simple to implement.

People fly 6s because that is what has been done in the past and it does work out fine. This does not mean there is not another easy way to do it. Also, up until Motrofly motors there was not a motor the right size that was wound for a 12s setup that I know if. Since Ken will custom wind the motors this barrier is eliminated.

I think a "budget" airframe is the perfect place for experimentation. The risk of failure is way lower because of the smaller cash outlay for the airframe. Once it is tested and proven in an inexpensive plane it can be tried in a higher dollar plane. The same thing goes for most R&D environments. Always start out with the lowest capital risk that will accomplish the test objective.

The point you made about already having 6s packs is a good and very valid point. My only response to that is... you have to pay to play and if he buys 6s 3700 packs he will have them when he decides to jump to a nicer airframe in the future.
 

gyro

GSN Contributor
Having flown multiple motrolfly motors on BOTH 6s and 8s... I can say without a doubt they preform better, run cooler, and give more power on 8s.

But like has been said, having 6s packs already simplifies the planning.

Many choose 6s 5000 so they can pair them up (as I have) on a 50cc sized bird.

My opinion: 6s works amazing on the 4325 with a speedy prop like I'm using (18x10) but IMHO 8s works better on the 4330/5320 motors, or other applications where you need a big prop (ie 4325 with 20x8 versus 18x10)
 

Dr. Gonzo

70cc twin V2
From the first post "After many hours of searching and trying to find a big airplane that I can afford, I bought an Extra 300" nothing heated. I can care less how anyone spends there money. Ok cool. If this is a budget build in the real world I just wanted to know why 12s would be such an advantage in this particular circumstance. Only because I am looking at doing a budget build my self. Is the extra 1 1/2 lbs worth the gains?
 

AKfreak

150cc
I look at it as battery's are consumables, and the motor and ESC cost no more run 3s or 6s or 12 in this case (10 bucks difference). Also, If a person was just stepping up to a bigger plane from a 3s/4s system to a 6s system, the cost of the 6s packs are already going to take place, so that's a wash.

However the main reason a person would want to use 12s is strictly based on the size of the airframe. An 11lbs 3d plane is going to work a single 6s pack to death and you'll have less than 4min flight times more or less. That's a huge turn off for me.

Remember with a 6s pack on my plane (75.5" 11lbs), the current draw will be around 120 amps at full throttle, that will be so hard on a single 6s pack. On a 12s system the draw is 75 amps, which in my opinion is not going to work my packs to death, not to mention give me normal flight times. Sure the 6s would function, but it would be like driving a Corvette around all day in third gear. It will do it, but at the end of the day, the car won't be happy, not to speak of the longevity of the car is greatly depleted.

When I said a budget project, I should of said budget large scale electric. Now to spill the beans a little, my ARF kit cost me $215. Shipped with 2 day the total was $241.00. For this size and quality of a plane for $200 bucks (more or less) that's a killer deal and I prey it flys 80% as well as an Extreme Flight.

For a 64" EF MSX shipping was $75 bucks, I haven't figured out how some people can ship for so much less that others, but shipping costs are a huge turn off for me. Even it a plane was marked up a little and some of the shipping costs were hidden, the perceived value for me is better when I don't suspect postal profiteering. I mean how do any of us know what actual shipping costs are? We aren't privy to people's books. ( sorry for the shipping cost rant). Now back to our regularly scheduled program... :)

Remember, when I post things sometimes it's hard for me to convey tone in written word. I in no way want to come off argumentative, rude, arrogant, or anything like that. I just try to express what I am thinking, and share the process of what I am doing. I hope I have done that, and if I come off like a jerk, please someone say something so I can fix it.
 

gyro

GSN Contributor
From the first post "After many hours of searching and trying to find a big airplane that I can afford, I bought an Extra 300" nothing heated. I can care less how anyone spends there money. Ok cool. If this is a budget build in the real world I just wanted to know why 12s would be such an advantage in this particular circumstance. Only because I am looking at doing a budget build my self. Is the extra 1 1/2 lbs worth the gains?

Mike:

6s 2600 packs:

http://www.buddyrc.com/glacier-30c-2600mah-6s1p.html

2x 412g = 824g / 2x $49.95 = $99.90

6s 5300 packs:

http://www.buddyrc.com/glacier-35c-5300mah-6s1p.html

1x 785g / 1x $104.95

So in the comparison above, we've got 6s5300 vs 12s2600, and the cost of the 6s is less, however you pay a slight (39g) weight penalty on the 12s setup.

On 6s you'd use a regular 155a ZTW ESC $94.95, and on 12s a 120a ZTW HV ESC at $109.95

http://www.buddyrc.com/ztw-gecko-155a-aircraft-esc-with-8a-sbec.html

http://www.buddyrc.com/ztw-gecko-120a-high-voltage-aircraft-esc.html

So in the end, the the 12s setup weighs 39g more, and costs ~ $10 more. The total battery energy potential is also nearly identical.

So where is the extra expense and a 1 1/2lb weight gain?
 

AKfreak

150cc
After doing the research, and considering that I would have to most likely buy new packs, the 12s, at least for me was a no brainier. YMMV
 
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