gyro
GSN Contributor
I understand your quest, and I have a similar background.... So I hear ya.
As for the idle up, I think I recommended that a while ago... I said to make mix it to your throttle cut.
Or what that in another thread?
Help With Motor Timing and Poor Throttle Response (Gecko 120HV)
- Thread starter AKfreak
- Start date
I understand your quest, and I have a similar background.... So I hear ya.
As for the idle up, I think I recommended that a while ago... I said to make mix it to your throttle cut.
Or what that in another thread?
AKfreak
150cc
I did read where you said, "Throttle Cut", I was wondering if a, "Idle Up" switch was different.
gyro
GSN Contributor
I use them interchangeably, since in my head, they function the same.
My advice was to program an idle up onto the throttle kill switch, and then it'll be the same between a gas and an electric plane. On allows the prop to spin, cut makes it stop.
A spinning electric prop always spools faster. I program this into ALL my electrics
Enterprise
150cc
What is the next largest electric airplane you have had? Maybe this is just the difference in size. 60" electric is a stupid powered class these days with 6s setups. My first 60" edge originally had a 3620-750, which was similar in can dimension on a 4s setup. There is no comparison to the 4315-480 setup you have on 6s. Quicker power response, and more of it. The analogy I seem to remember Ken used a few years ago was that short motors are great for 3D and acceleration and long can motors are better for speed. They may have the same wattage, but they will react differently in the throttle response.
BTW I have somewhere around 12k hours in fixed wing aircraft from Cubs to Airbus's. I know Murphy's Law a little too well.
The power system clearly is working. Your issue is more of a tuning deal, rather than a "will it fail". If it truly is bothering you, see if you can borrow a Castle HV ESC from someone in your area and see what that does.
I just went through a very frustrating electrical issue with my heli that I solved with a crutch. The problem is still there, just masked by a layer I redundancy.
BTW I have somewhere around 12k hours in fixed wing aircraft from Cubs to Airbus's. I know Murphy's Law a little too well.
The power system clearly is working. Your issue is more of a tuning deal, rather than a "will it fail". If it truly is bothering you, see if you can borrow a Castle HV ESC from someone in your area and see what that does.
I just went through a very frustrating electrical issue with my heli that I solved with a crutch. The problem is still there, just masked by a layer I redundancy.
Aeroplayin
70cc twin V2
The 60/64 MXS with a 16x8 on a DM4315-480 is silly power and throttle response is instant. But as you move to bigger props with more moment and mass, the angular velocity, rotational kinetic energy, and moment of inertia changes a lot. Getting the same type of instant acceleration on a 20 inch that you get with a 16 inch is going to be tough.
I actually just bought another Ice2 HV80 on eBay, and spent over $300 on a Mezon just to get the acceleration I want on 20 and 21 inch props. The Mezon can be programmed under the Acceleration menu to 0.5 seconds, but no faster. At that setting, the acceleration is just about as fast as my Ice2 HV ESCs on default with the 3.27 firmware version. It's never going to be like the 15 and 16 inch props on the 60-class EXPs. It can't. The type of EMF sag and current spike that would result from it would fry most speed controllers with this load level.
I actually just bought another Ice2 HV80 on eBay, and spent over $300 on a Mezon just to get the acceleration I want on 20 and 21 inch props. The Mezon can be programmed under the Acceleration menu to 0.5 seconds, but no faster. At that setting, the acceleration is just about as fast as my Ice2 HV ESCs on default with the 3.27 firmware version. It's never going to be like the 15 and 16 inch props on the 60-class EXPs. It can't. The type of EMF sag and current spike that would result from it would fry most speed controllers with this load level.
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AKfreak
150cc
I have a ShowTime 90 and it is ballistic like the MSX. I have played with an Sebart Miss Wind and its the same too, Re_Donkulious Power. I agree that the power system works, and the power is indeed there. I also agree 100% that the plane will fly and will not have a problem doing so. My issue is and has always been the application of power.
In the beginning, before I spent a single dime, the vision was to build a 3D monster. I explained to Ken exactly my expectations and this was the setup he recommended. I have all the confidence in the world that I made the right choice with the Motor. This thing is a beast, and I am also 100% convinced the 12s is the way to go (efficiency). My packs have proven well in every other application I have thrown at them, but I see now they sag more that I thought. The Prop (20x8) was based on a recommendation, and I am not convinced its the way to go (yet to be proven). I really like the Falcon stuff, so I will order one of those and test it. As for the ESC, up until the MSX I have used Castle exclusively (20+ of them). And I love Castle Link with all of the programming flexibility. I also love the fixed endpoints, no out of sync BS to ever deal with. I gave the ZTW a go because I figured it's basically free power. I saw some posts where the ZTW out performed a Castle offering 400 watts of free power VS. Not to mention the cost difference.
I am not sure why the 85 is so much different than the 120HV, but they seem night and day to me. I 'm also sure there is some performance variance due to prop size, but not that much. Let me say that I have all the confidence in the world that my plane will fly, and it will fly reliably. If I was doing pattern work I would not give this a second thought. I have become spoiled with unlimited and instant punch-out power. I fully expect that same with this plane too.
I know many of you are sick if hearing about this problem, especially when you think there isn't a problem. I fully plan to make some videos tomorrow, I also hope to put this plane in the hands of some well known pros to confirm my observations, at my field there are a bunch of guys that know their stuff.
Lastly if there is a way to fix this problem, I will fix it. I do not plan to live with this and learn how to work with it. I want it right, or I just don't want it. It really would be nice if ZTW could look at this issue and make some sort of firmware upgrade. I would live to see fixed end points, and the ability to set a hard start speed. What do you think if I increase the start up speed to 40% or 50%.
Thanks to all of you that tired to help me. If and when I figure this out, I will be sure to let you know what I did. Also stay tuned for a flight test, tomorrow is almost here.
EDIT: I just bought a Phoenix Ice2 HV 80 for $92 shipped from KC.. We will soon see whats up with this problem.
In the beginning, before I spent a single dime, the vision was to build a 3D monster. I explained to Ken exactly my expectations and this was the setup he recommended. I have all the confidence in the world that I made the right choice with the Motor. This thing is a beast, and I am also 100% convinced the 12s is the way to go (efficiency). My packs have proven well in every other application I have thrown at them, but I see now they sag more that I thought. The Prop (20x8) was based on a recommendation, and I am not convinced its the way to go (yet to be proven). I really like the Falcon stuff, so I will order one of those and test it. As for the ESC, up until the MSX I have used Castle exclusively (20+ of them). And I love Castle Link with all of the programming flexibility. I also love the fixed endpoints, no out of sync BS to ever deal with. I gave the ZTW a go because I figured it's basically free power. I saw some posts where the ZTW out performed a Castle offering 400 watts of free power VS. Not to mention the cost difference.
I am not sure why the 85 is so much different than the 120HV, but they seem night and day to me. I 'm also sure there is some performance variance due to prop size, but not that much. Let me say that I have all the confidence in the world that my plane will fly, and it will fly reliably. If I was doing pattern work I would not give this a second thought. I have become spoiled with unlimited and instant punch-out power. I fully expect that same with this plane too.
I know many of you are sick if hearing about this problem, especially when you think there isn't a problem. I fully plan to make some videos tomorrow, I also hope to put this plane in the hands of some well known pros to confirm my observations, at my field there are a bunch of guys that know their stuff.
Lastly if there is a way to fix this problem, I will fix it. I do not plan to live with this and learn how to work with it. I want it right, or I just don't want it. It really would be nice if ZTW could look at this issue and make some sort of firmware upgrade. I would live to see fixed end points, and the ability to set a hard start speed. What do you think if I increase the start up speed to 40% or 50%.
Thanks to all of you that tired to help me. If and when I figure this out, I will be sure to let you know what I did. Also stay tuned for a flight test, tomorrow is almost here.
EDIT: I just bought a Phoenix Ice2 HV 80 for $92 shipped from KC.. We will soon see whats up with this problem.
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Aeroplayin
70cc twin V2
The 20x8 on 12S with a 215-216 Kv is still the optimal power for this size plane at 285 to 290 Watts per pound. If you are unhappy with the throttle response, then you will need to reduce the diameter of the prop. To make sure this is not an ESC issue, try a 19x8 and see what happens versus the 20 when you get the 80A. If your acceleration does improve, this could be the issue.
I never invest a lot in batteries until I am sure of power and weigh, so If acceleration improves with the 19x8, there are 7S batts out there that you can team up with a 6S (same C, capacity, and brand) for a 13S which will deliver the same 3100W on 65A with a smaller prop. The Mezon 75 is a 15S ESC too. I’m actually considering a 15S 4000 setup for my next build.
In the end, I’m guessing that the type of “on-off switch” throttle response you are looking for is hazardous to the electrical system because of the electrophysics and electrochemistry involved. When you try to jam that much EMF through a system like this, something’s got to give, and this is why so many really good ESCs have fried on so many people in the past.
The only other thing I can suggest is to solder a CapPack on your ESC. This adds capacitance, and can help with quick voltage burst requirements. It is probably the best thing you can do for the health of your ESC, but if nothing else, it can't hurt.
The only other option from here is to use a heavier motor that is build for bigger props. The problem is that motors that I trust are about 850 to 1000 grams in the next size up.
I don't want to dissuade a fellow traveler in search of the Holy Grail of power and efficiency, but I've never seen prop response sag with bigger props on smaller motors. This is why the DM5335 with a 22x10 is going to be so sweet on the 85 inch MXS. It's the smallest prop you would bother putting on a 5500W motor, which means high efficiency at 4200W and 95A on 12S. It can swing the 22x10 without breaking a sweat.
I never invest a lot in batteries until I am sure of power and weigh, so If acceleration improves with the 19x8, there are 7S batts out there that you can team up with a 6S (same C, capacity, and brand) for a 13S which will deliver the same 3100W on 65A with a smaller prop. The Mezon 75 is a 15S ESC too. I’m actually considering a 15S 4000 setup for my next build.
In the end, I’m guessing that the type of “on-off switch” throttle response you are looking for is hazardous to the electrical system because of the electrophysics and electrochemistry involved. When you try to jam that much EMF through a system like this, something’s got to give, and this is why so many really good ESCs have fried on so many people in the past.
The only other thing I can suggest is to solder a CapPack on your ESC. This adds capacitance, and can help with quick voltage burst requirements. It is probably the best thing you can do for the health of your ESC, but if nothing else, it can't hurt.
The only other option from here is to use a heavier motor that is build for bigger props. The problem is that motors that I trust are about 850 to 1000 grams in the next size up.
I don't want to dissuade a fellow traveler in search of the Holy Grail of power and efficiency, but I've never seen prop response sag with bigger props on smaller motors. This is why the DM5335 with a 22x10 is going to be so sweet on the 85 inch MXS. It's the smallest prop you would bother putting on a 5500W motor, which means high efficiency at 4200W and 95A on 12S. It can swing the 22x10 without breaking a sweat.
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Aeroplayin
70cc twin V2
Another thing to remember is that flying the plane will change things too. A bigger prop in a static test has a LOT of resistance. When I'm flying at 60% throttle, and goose it, the motor literally howls. Pretty much the same thing on pull-outs, where the prop is already spinning at about 35% power. Believe me... you do not want a 20 inch prop to go from zero RPMs to 7800 RPMs instantly.
