Help With Motor Timing and Poor Throttle Response (Gecko 120HV)

[Aeroplayin]

Watts-in is the volts multiplied times the Amps, and what you see on your meter. Watts-out is the amount of power required to actually do the work... like spinning a 20x8 PJN to 7840 RPMs. The difference is typically the power going to maintain the rest of the energy output.. heat, noise, magnetic field, etc. It is calculated by multiplying prop diameter (in feet to the 4th power), RPMs (divided by 1000 to the 3rd power), the prop pitch (in feet), and the load constant of the propeller, which in this case is about 1.028.

So putting a tach on your system, and getting an Amps and volts reading, will tell us most of what we need to know at this point and really compare what you're getting with at least two or three other people I share data with that are running the 12S system with the 20x8 on either a Hacker A60-7S 215Kv or the DN4330-216.

 

[Aeroplayin]

I noticed on the bench yesterday with no prop on, that there was a lag in the spool up power given to the motor. With no load, it should be pretty quick and it was not. I will have to see how it work in the air. I tried changing the start power, but that just changed the initial power boost, and not the throttle response. My guess is it is a "feature" to prevent commutation. Since I am using a Hacker A60-8S, Castle controllers are not a viable option. I would have to get a Mezon or another Scorpion Commander.

Yeah, the Edge HV are not an option, but I'm using Ice2 HV80's on one of my Hacker 28 pole A60-7S 12S setups and it runs fine with 3.27 firmware versions. I'm getting them off eBay for about $95 new from guys parting out their heli combos. The top end and acceleration is as good as my $330 Mezon 95 OPTO set to the fastest setting (0.5 secs). It also gives me all the log data I need, and the Mezon will require a $160 Profi box to do virtually the same thing.

 

[gyro]

I noticed on the bench yesterday with no prop on, that there was a lag in the spool up power given to the motor. With no load, it should be pretty quick and it was not. I will have to see how it work in the air. I tried changing the start power, but that just changed the initial power boost, and not the throttle response. My guess is it is a "feature" to prevent commutation. Since I am using a Hacker A60-8S, Castle controllers are not a viable option. I would have to get a Mezon or another Scorpion Commander.

Matt, is this on your 150hv?

 

[Enterprise]

Yes, 150HV. Not run the prop yet, maybe later today when it stops raining.

 

[Enterprise]

You are most certainly not crazy or wrong. This is no better than what I saw from your videos and might actually be worse. I changed the timing to 30 degrees per the manual after this (this is auto) and no difference, as that is what it said for high pole count motors. I don't like loosing power in the castle as you describe. Since Nall is so close I ordered a Hobbywing 100A HV ESC from helidirect which is literally on my way to work, so it will be here in a day or two. I will fly it this weekend with this setup and see how I feel. I can always sell the Hobbywing to the heli crowd.

[video=youtube;sqFE12W971o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqFE12W971o[/video]

 

[Aeroplayin]

I had the Hobbywing 100A HV and it never flew. I did some static testing with it, had immeditate timing issues, and sold it the next day to a warbird flier at the club. My buddy Frankjp had the same problem with the KForce 100A HV, and if you put them both side by side, the only difference was the lable. I also had the same timing issues with the HK Superbrain 100A HV. I've also tested the ExceedRC,, Proton, and Volcano labels from Hobbypartz with the same result.

 

[Aeroplayin]

And if I change my Acceleration timing on the Mezon 95 OPTO from where it is now, which is 0.5 secs, to 1.0 secs, I'd get the same result as what I see in the video... maybe not quite as bad, but close.

 

[AKfreak]

Watts-in is the volts multiplied times the Amps, and what you see on your meter. Watts-out is the amount of power required to actually do the work... like spinning a 20x8 PJN to 7840 RPMs. The difference is typically the power going to maintain the rest of the energy output.. heat, noise, magnetic field, etc. It is calculated by multiplying prop diameter (in feet to the 4th power), RPMs (divided by 1000 to the 3rd power), the prop pitch (in feet), and the load constant of the propeller, which in this case is about 1.028.

So putting a tach on your system, and getting an Amps and volts reading, will tell us most of what we need to know at this point and really compare what you're getting with at least two or three other people I share data with that are running the 12S system with the 20x8 on either a Hacker A60-7S 215Kv or the DN4330-216.

This is the most informative post I have read on understanding electric RC power systems. Thanks so much for the wonderful explanation.

 

[AKfreak]

You are most certainly not crazy or wrong. This is no better than what I saw from your videos and might actually be worse. I changed the timing to 30 degrees per the manual after this (this is auto) and no difference, as that is what it said for high pole count motors. I don't like loosing power in the castle as you describe. Since Nall is so close I ordered a Hobbywing 100A HV ESC from helidirect which is literally on my way to work, so it will be here in a day or two. I will fly it this weekend with this setup and see how I feel. I can always sell the Hobbywing to the heli crowd.

[video=youtube;sqFE12W971o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqFE12W971o[/video]

That is mega lazy just like mine was. I didn't mention that it almost cost me my plane the other day. Well it was a combo of things. I pulled up into a high angle of attack, then pull back all the way on the elevator and spun the plane. I gave it full throttle but the delay allowed the plane to establish a deep spin. I was kind of low but was able to push forward and break no the spin, but not before I want from a left spin to a right spin with full on power. I chopped the power pushed forward broke the spin and was able to pull out 15 feet from the ground.

If the throttle was more crisp, I would not of had a problem, as the plane would of pulled out way before the spin was fully developed.

 

[Enterprise]

I had the Hobbywing 100A HV and it never flew. I did some static testing with it, had immeditate timing issues, and sold it the next day to a warbird flier at the club. My buddy Frankjp had the same problem with the KForce 100A HV, and if you put them both side by side, the only difference was the lable. I also had the same timing issues with the HK Superbrain 100A HV. I've also tested the ExceedRC,, Proton, and Volcano labels from Hobbypartz with the same result.

How long ago was this? The product page claims there is a new version of the software that adds compatibility to other motors. I am somewhat used to being a beta tester for things. I know the issues with the Castle. The Edge does not work with my motor, and the Ice2 looses power. It appears to be a 1 second spool up to full power. I have had good luck with other Hobbywing ESCs, and they are know for being "dumb" ESCs that just work. I use a 100A in my heli as the Ikon runs the system and the lack of sophistication helps. I got 3100 watts on the meter with fully charged batteries, so the Gecko is delivering the power, just not in a timely manner. I will fly it this weekend as is and see how it goes.

The Hobbywing might be here by Saturday, otherwise it will probably just go into the parts bin for the trip to Nall and I will deal with it there. Taking my soldering iron and powerpole setup, so I can rewire it there.